Forums: Purgatory:

Ok. I'm completely insenstive. I'll buy that. 120,000 of my fellow humans have died and I no longer really care.

Then again, it turns out I really don't like my fellow humans very much. For the most part they're a bunch of insensitive assholes, just like me. Too many people have been using this "tradegy" to pimp their own biased viewpoints, their own predudices, and their own agenda. And after awhile I start thinking, "Well, what if the dead are just like these other assholes?"

Suddenly I start caring a whole lot less.

I think about the huge number of people dead in Darfur, and I realize that no one is making a difference there. A lot of people talk about it and blame each other but no one is really making a difference anymore.

I think about the news, and the completely inane and pointless coverage, and I wonder why the fuck these people are encouraged to continue putting out this shit, and then I remember that a lot of the dead tourists were the kind of people that encouraged news coverage like this.

I think about charity organizations and it amazes me that the first thing we need to do in order to find a charity to help through is to find one that is more interested in helping then in taking our fucking money. For many charities, this disaster means money in their coffers, money that will never make a fucking difference in someone's life.

I think about the vast number of poor people who lived in shanty towns on small islands or close to the coast who were just barely surviving and being ignored by their government and I'm amazed by the irony that people are willing to care and contribute now that they're all dead.

I think about the tourist resort owners and how they're probably going to come out far ahead by the time this is done, because after all who else is going to benefit from all this money rolling in? The dead and the poor or the alive and wealthy?

I think about the daily body counts and yet I haven't see a count of the number of people left homeless or the number of people no longer able to provide for themselves or their families. It's like we're a species that feeds on grief and has no time for compassion.

I think of the huge loss and then remember that a gram of prevention would have been more than worth the ton of cure that's now needed, but no one gave a shit about actually investing in the prevention, even though they were more than willing to invest in the tourist resorts.

I think of the number of accusations, insults, "fuck you"s and other behavior of people on this forum who think of themselves as "friends" and realize that if this is the best humanity has to offer than 120,000 dead isn't nearly enough. After watching the guy who thought it was funny to post a video of someone blowing their head off (or something like that) getting upset enough to post another video of two elderly people dying in order to stress that, "my god these people had families", I pretty much quit giving a shit about humanity. If these 120,000 represent the hatred, bigotry, hypocrisy, and basic suckitude I've come to expect from myself some of the other assholes here I've thought of as friends then who really gives a fuck about anyone else?

Maybe if I had seen some acts of caring or of selflessness instead of what seems like an endless series of snuff films, insults, and accusations I would still care.

I read every word. Interesting points.

Only I don't see where that "gram of prevention" would be applied... there IS no way to prevent something like this happening. You can't beat nature. You just can't.

Only I don't see where that "gram of prevention" would be applied... there IS no way to prevent something like this happening. You can't beat nature. You just can't. [/B]

More than likely he means investing in advance warning systems that would have at least warned people of the tsunami, and possibly the earthquake. Or possibly investing in some sort of infrastructure that would allow for communication and relief systems to be effective in the chaos.

I still can't get past the fact that the avg margin of error in the death toll is about the same as the # that died on 9/11.

I had been under the impression that a short trip inland would have made a difference. Now that I've seen the satellite images (see other thread) I'm no longer sure that would have made a difference.

Even if Colorado and Honolulu had been able to contact the right people and the warning system put into place, I'm not sure how much good that really would have done. I'm pretty sure a lot of lives would have been saved, but I no longer think it would have saved as many as I used to think.

Prevention and warning systems weren't in place partly because there was no history of tsunamis in the Indian Ocean. Should warning systems be developed for every risk? What about the Yellowstone Caldera? The 125th St.fault? New Madras? There's not even a tsunami warning system in the Caribbean, which has had some in recorded history.

Even if there had been a warning system, how would it have helped in Aceh, where possibly 400,000 died? How could we evacuate NYC if La Palma blows? What difference would it have made if the victims were rich and had better infrastructure?

Having lost a child, I can identify with the pain of others even even worse situations. But the humor at the memorial service taught me the value of humor in the face of tragedy.

Having experienced floods, I can appreciate their massive power. No man is an island. There but for fortune...

There is something to be said about the relative reactions between europeans and americans. 490 Danes are missing. Based on a percentage of population, that would equal over 25,000 americans. How different would the reaction be if 25,000 americans were missing and believed dead?

Ken, you're right that we each can only do what we each can do, but the larger we, represented by our government, should do what it can do, since governments are often more efficient than individuals.

Originally posted by FlamingoJeff
governments are often more efficient than individuals.

Please forgive me if I simply don't believe that last statement. It's my belief that as an organization grows it trades efficiency for power. Large organizations have great power, but they're extremely inefficient at using it.

If we, as a people, have a responsibility, then we, as a people should step up. We shouldn't need a government to come up with a complicated tax system, enforced through police and jails, to gather money that will then be used for aid relief as soon as elected officals can agree on how much and where. That's not efficiency by any means.

-----------

As for how different the reaction would be, I've seen NO DIFFERENCE in reaction, regardless of where the event is. There was tasteless shit immediately following 9/11. There was tasteless shit as the French buried their dead elderly. There was tasteless shit when people interevened in Bosnia and people got killed and when people ignored Bosnia and people got killed. If we lost 25,000 in America I'd expect to see some commentary involving red states and blue states withinn 24 hours right next to the posts by Ari and Wingworm complaining about the US.

Besides 25,000 is simply too small a number. America has lost 250,000 to AIDS so far and I've buried enough of them for one lifetime. Africa has lost something like 15,000,000 people to Aids. That's how many Tsunamis worth of people? Either way it's more than I can fathom. Drive from Wisconson through Minnesota through Iowa and then visit me in Nebraska and imagine every single individual in those 4 states dead including us. That's Africa and AIDS.

Originally posted by bons
Please forgive me if I simply don't believe that last statement. It's my belief that as an organization grows it trades efficiency for power. Large organizations have great power, but they're extremely inefficient at using it.

An interesting theory, and one that I don't entirely disagree with in principle, except that the obvious conclusion would be that an individual is therefore equally effective as a large organization in effecting change which is ultimately untrue (or at least would seem so through historical example).

I think it's got more to do with the type of organization - armies are a lot more efficient tools of wielding power than, say, house committees. Though I hear the people, united, will never be divided.

I think of the number of accusations, insults, "fuck you"s and other behavior of people on this forum who think of themselves as "friends" and realize that if this is the best humanity has to offer than 120,000 dead isn't nearly enough. After watching the guy who thought it was funny to post a video of someone blowing their head off (or something like that) getting upset enough to post another video of two elderly people dying in order to stress that, "my god these people had families", I pretty much quit giving a shit about humanity. If these 120,000 represent the hatred, bigotry, hypocrisy, and basic suckitude I've come to expect from myself some of the other assholes here I've thought of as friends then who really gives a fuck about anyone else?

Maybe if I had seen some acts of caring or of selflessness instead of what seems like an endless series of snuff films, insults, and accusations I would still care

Oh, you know you don't mean that. Just because you're capable of offending people when you get all lathered up doesn't mean everyone hates you.

Regional differences aside, I think we on 12stone have displayed pretty regularly that we have more in common culturally than simple national boundaries would suggest. tell me bons, do you see more eye to eye with people from LA, NYC, or, say, Winnipeg? Sure, I'm a proud Canadian, but I also know that nationalism divides more often than it unites. I'm a human first - which is precisely why I say mean things when people confuse national government and its foreign policy with national character.

If I hate mainstream Western culture as cheap and brutal, how does that make me anti-American? Isn't the counterculture equally American? If I disagree with the American government's actions or mistrust its elected leaders, how does that make me anti-American? Critical discourse is a hallmark of a free and open society, why are you offended when people exercise that? Are people within your country who are critical of your government anti-American? Is complete unquestioning obedience typical of the freedoms the founding Fathers had in mind?

That aside, c'mon, acts of selflessness abound on 12s. We're basically a socialist tech support/design community system. Unless someone's secretly getting paid for all the advice, bug testing, code checking, etc. and I didn't hear about it.

Enjoy your marmite, you big lug.

Originally posted by arigato
an individual is therefore equally effective as a large organization in effecting change which is ultimately untrue (or at least would seem so through historical example).

Enjoy your marmite, you big lug.

History tells me that certain individuals have been extremely effective in making change. What individuals lack is often the power to force change (thank goodness). A writer with the skill of Ray Bradbury can make huge changes in the world, but only a large organization has the power to effectively distribute his writings and only a large enough organization has the power to effectively censor those writings.

Did you get your package of peanut brittle in it's recycled packaging yet?

I have some recycled peanut brittle....

Medicare, for all of its shortcomings, has a greatly lower administrative cost than the private sector. There are some jobs where bigger is better. Can your neighborhood haul their own garbage, build their own roads?

I've served on one of the smallest units of local government, a lake association, responsible for managing a lake and common property. It devolved into personal threats and lawsuits. On the other hand, living in DC, I've met lots of hard-working, dedicated government workers. Sure, there are plenty of duds, but they're just as common in the private sector. In many ways, Washington does attract the "best and the brightest."

And tasteless shit is a coping mechanism. I sure laughed in relief when my son was called a dumbass at his memorial service.


And the peanut brittle is great!

Sadly, I have not yet received any peanut brittle.
I got your Xmas card though!
I blame whitey.

FJ - how old was your son when he died, and what were the circumstances?
Is the this the son that helped deliver your second born?
Feel feel to ignore those questions if it's too personal.

17. Car accident when his friend had had a few beers. A coma for 10 days.

Well. shit. It's stuff like that where I start thinking reversing the drinking age & the driving age would be a better idea. I take it this happened a ways back? Not like it makes it any better.

1986. The friend didn't handle the curve and they hit a telephone pole. If my son had been wearing a seat belt he might have survived like the driver (his best friend) did. I don't change parking spaces without my seatbelt since then, and nobody in the passenger seat can't wear one.

Wow. He was a year older than me. I was 16 in '86.

*mental note to always make sure seat belt is done up*

Why is this thread in Purgatory??!!

This is probably the most insightful and rational discussion I have ever seen on 12s.

Sure, bons is taking a very un-PC stance on a disaster that is only a week old, but come on, that is no reason to jail the thread.

In regard to your position though, I'd be a hypocrite if I said you were an asshole to say you don't care about the victims of the tsunami, because I haven't donated one dime to the relief effort either.

I take a more Darwinian stance in that I believe that a natural thinning of the herd has to take place every once in awhile. There are too many people on this rock (especially in Asia) and mother nature cannot support us all.

Would I have a different opinion if a tornado hit Calgary and wiped out half of the city and killed my friends and family members? Probably, but that doesn't matter in the grander scheme of things. The plain truth is that the planet is better off with fewer people on it.

I also don't feel comfortable donating to Thailand, Sumatra or Sri Lanka without donating to the island countries that were flattened by Ivan or victims of tornados, earthquakes or any other natural disaster anywhere. What's the point?

Call me a cold-hearted asshole, but the human race has a price to pay for it's reproduction and living practices. The crazy weather the last couple years is mother nature cashing in some overdue cheques, if you ask me.

bons started this thread in purgatory of his own accord.

Originally posted by arigato
bons started this thread in purgatory of his own accord.

How considerate! Maybe he's not such a bad guy after all

FJ ...sorry about your loss, as you know (or don't ) i've lost a 4 year old to a car accident, loss is no stranger to me ,brother,wife, kid, father, and shit i'm only in my 40's...still it's always really sad for me to hear of someone else losing a child....

As for the 100,000 + all i could think of is what bullshit this is...nobody gives a fuck about the 100,000 Iraqis blown up in a year, in the US, yet this is like everyone that can get a dollar together is 'helping" .give me a break...100's of thousands die every die from aids,starvation, etc...
An actor gets 20 mill a picture and donates 1 so fucking what...

bons ...you make some good points but i hope your really not that cynical (worse than me)..people can disagree ,and disagree they do but that doesn't mean they are assholes, at least not in an overall sense...since i never met you personally i would never assume you to be one ,even though i disagree with alot of what you say ..i would hope you are of the same mind..

anyway hope you all had a good new years and all..

I hadn't really read this thread before, but me and my husband had a discussion about this because he complained about me being obsessed with watching it on the news. He basically bought up all the points you have bons including why has all our goverments got all this money to help them out but there are people in our own countries that need homes and I argued with him about it. But reading your post and thinking about what he said, there are some good points and maybe I am being patronising by donating to this and not donating to anything else. I still stick to the opinion that they need our help but it just made me think that's all