Forums: Waiting for Godot:

i know there are few (not too many, but a few) people here who follow hockey, so I wanted to get your opinion on the whole Sundin situation right now.

Basically the Leafs want to trade him so they can begin their rebuilding, but he has his whole no-trade clause that he has come out saying he will not waive in order to be traded. He is saying he does not care about winning a cup, he cares about helping his team out as best he can right now and "following his heart." There are a lot of mixed feelings about this, some saying hes being selfish and some (more) saying its an extremely noble move on his part to not let the fans down and finish his career in Toronto.

I must say I'm with the people who think he is being selfish. Sure his heart is in Toronto and he doesnt want to let down the fans...but really, what he doesnt seem to understand, is that now is his biggest chance to give Toronto what they want/need. To rebuild. With Sundin playing as well as he is right now, a Sundin trade could bring the Leafs some really great players or at least some great prospects which will help the Leafs in the future. If Sundin doesnt have a good year next year, the Leafs will be lucky to get anything for him. Also, since Sundin has said he will not waive his no-trade clause, other players on the Leafs who would be great to trade (Kaberle, Tucker, etc.) have come out saying they will not waive theirs, meaning next year Toronto will essentially be the same shitty team next year.

I really think if Sundin wants to help out Toronto, he should allow himself to be traded in order for the Leafs to begin their rebuilding process.

Any other opinions?

Disagree.......I remember when the same people were complaining none of the players had any loyalty to their teams and their fans. They followed the money around and all wanted to jump ship just to win a cup. Finally, you've got a player with loyalty to his team and people call him selfish. I don't get it. I guess T.O. fans always need something to complain about.

He's being loyal and he knows the Leafs will bring in many new players and for the health of the franchise he wants to be a part of helping them and mentoring them into true professionals. Sundin's retirement might even bring the Leafs a good front office or GM if he chooses to stay in the game. Simply selling him off if he doesn't want to do is being disloyal to him. You can't have players loyal to the team and the fans if the teams and fans aren't loyal to their players.

You have a team with a GM who's just looking to babysit until someone steps in next year and lets him get back into retirement.

Then you have the Leaves themselves (the executives mainly), who are making money hand over fist.

I'm sorry, but you don't have to be a hockey nerd to do simple math (2+2). So long as the cash continues to flow, and the fans continue to pour into the ACC, every single argument about what it's going to take to win a Stanley cup, is moot.

In fact, the only people who actually have decision making power here, are the fans themselves. If you don't like what's happening to the team in this city, stop supporting them. Stop going to the games. Stop ordering the tv channels.

Give the business owners something to pay attention to. Right now, they can't hear any of us/you over the sounds of dollar signs ringing in their ears.

...of course, if people stop going to games, the managers will just think "let's move the team."

Not that one of the Original Six would ever have to worry about that, just sayin'...

I'd have to side with Stormy. I thought it had some class, especially his thoughts on rental players. Jeez, he wants to stick with a losing team and try to lead it to the promised land. And I bet he's got some good years left. He's been such a consistent player all these years, and hasn't dropped off much. And, as an oil fan, I can tell ya, it hurts to lose one of your main heart and soul players (Smytty for us). It does change the team. I mean, who would they make Captain on that team after Sundin left?

Where's O/R's two bits? And what's the story with that big Dallas trade? Big Brett Hull going in guns blazing Texas-Style!

Been as busy as a midget mountain climber, kids. I'll weigh in tomorrow.

All I gotta say is Leafs fans are more hardcore than Oiler fans, and that's really saying something. It's been 20 times longer since they've been in a Final.

I also gotta say, if Smytty decided, "nah, I'd rather stick with Edmonton," I would have taken it up the ASS from a subway train full of poo on fire. I wouldn't be debating whether he was being selfish or not? Aren't there other players that could be traded?

Originally posted by: Your Mom
I also gotta say, if Smytty decided, "nah, I'd rather stick with Edmonton," I would have taken it up the ASS from a subway train full of poo on fire.

Um. What?

Well, you know. If the option was given.

Originally posted by: Mingus Tourette

Originally posted by: Your Mom
I also gotta say, if Smytty decided, "nah, I'd rather stick with Edmonton," I would have taken it up the ASS from a subway train full of poo on fire.

Um. What?

*reads it again*

Eh?!

There's nothing wrong with a girl who likes to take on a big one. It's admirable, in fact.

RE: Sundin—I have always had a ton of respect for Mats. He has been a bright spot in a vast sea of blackness for that franchise for years. More to the point, SS, he HAS been helping Toronto. He could have gone many, many other places long before now, and he stuck to his guns and put on a display of loyalty that is rare thing in all of professional sports.

I find it laudable that he is unwilling to let "management" shuffle him off for a rent-a-player and a 5th round pick that will bail after the season is over and likely pan out to nothing, respectively. If anything, he is showing more loyalty than those jackals in the suits. Have we learned nothing from the Smyth debacle?

Stormy also made a good point: You can't have players loyal to the team and the fans if the teams and fans aren't loyal to their players. This is a cut-throat, mercenary business when it comes to moving players and picking up pieces for a run. Believe me, if anyone understands this, I do. There are lots of unpleasant decisions that have to be made for various reasons, and there are times when those decisions result in seeing those players in your barn again—in a different sweater.

You don't move a fan favorite unless you know for a fact that it will produce dividends immediately. Winning makes people forget a lot of things, but losing makes it worse than it was before. And you damn sure don't move a guy who has been your rock for years when your chances of capturing Lord Stanley ain't all that to begin with. #1, it's bad business, #2, it's bad karna, #3, don't fuck with the fans.

Changing gears just a bit...

People, it's all about the confluence of management and a certain level of talent & coaching. This is why teams like Detroit have done so well for years now. They have a smart owner and sharp business minds in the front office. They get the right players—not necessarily the best, but the *right ones*—and put them in a position to succeed (which is the secret of running any business, really). This is why you have perennial failures like Florida and Toronto, and perennial winners like the 'Wings and San Jose.

This really illustrates just what a piss-poor management team the Oilers have. The goodwill and fan interest capital that they squander is breathtaking. There are 20 teams in the NHL that would kill a 747 full of nuns and crippled orphans for that kind of fan base. They are a cold, calculating bunch—they're not dumb, they know EXACTLY what they are doing—who only do what is necessary to keep their barn full of people buying overpriced bullshit and taking any ticket hike right in the cornhole. They typically cultivate enough talent to get a few home playoff games and make their contract bonuses. They haven't even been able to do THAT lately, in fact, ever since they ripped the heart of the franchise out. It is offensive, disgusting, and otherwise a slap in the face to anyone who loves hockey to see such a proud franchise being absolutely whored out.

It was getting that way in Dallas, ever since Gainey left for Montreal. Thank goodness, Tom Hicks finally said enough was enough, and showed those simpletons, Armstong and Lites, the way to the exit. Now Dallas is right on top of Detroit for the President's Cup, and they just picked up Mr. Awesome in Brad Richards.

I gotta get to work.

Thanks for that. I'm not even going to ask for the Coles Notes version.

Still, makes me sad to have it phrased that way by someone from the Saath.

There are 20 teams in the NHL that would kill a 747 full of nuns and crippled orphans for that kind of fan base.

What about taking it up the ass from a subway train full of poo on fire?

Richards with 5 points in his first game--somewhere Brett Hull is chomping his cigar and giggling.

But what do you mean about the cold calculating Oil office? You mean Lowe? I have no idea the mgmt team, really, bonusses, etc. Do you think the new owner will change that around, or what? It was a real blow last year when Smytty was traded.

On the plus side for the Oil--at least Nilsson is playing, looking like he'll be an NHL'er. We're lucky to have those kids this year--Cogliano, Gagner, Nilsson. But we do miss Smytty. And more, this year, we miss Moreau when he's not around. I would have been sadder to lose him than Smytty, really. Too many injuries this year.

I'm telling you, we have to have beaten a record for players lost from injury.

I don't like how e-towners figure this new owner is going to change the bullshit we've dealt with. We don't keep excellent players; we sell them. That's how we roll.

This crap about building a new coliseum has to go too. Downtown? Are you fucking crazy?! What the fuck is traffic going to do for a 6:00 game on a Friday night? How about worry less about "livening up downtown" and more about filling potholes & cleaning the streets? Fuck Edmonton today.

Waa, I'm going to smoke some weed and cheer the fuck up

I think we'll keep the excellent players cause Katz knows the pain of losing the greats--Gretz, Messier, even through the Dougie Weight-Smytty sadness.

If it makes you feel better-smytty's out indefinitely while the Oil, somehow, have a four win streak going. Those fuckers refuse to quit, no matter how futile the stats are. You gotta love that. 'Course, it drives you nuts, cause you're just about ready to give up for the year, and maddeningly, they aren't quite dead yet. You know--if they can win 8 of the next 10, then maybe, just maybe...

Yep, that's Oil fans, reluctantly hopeful.

Shitty Columbus got 1 point last night.

If we make playoffs, it's going to be from the Energy (4th) line, or the farm kids. A few under-6-foot 18-year-olds. Hey, I can't argue, if our babies make it happen, that's going to rock my cock. Not Souray, not Moreau, not the seasoned veterans getting us in.

Originally posted by: Your Mom
Still, makes me sad to have it phrased that way by someone from the Saath.

Why?

What about taking it up the ass from a subway train full of poo on fire?

Sure.

Originally posted by: Mingus Tourette
Richards with 5 points in his first game--somewhere Brett Hull is chomping his cigar and giggling.

That makes two of us, ha-HA!

But what do you mean about the cold calculating Oil office? You mean Lowe? I have no idea the mgmt team, really, bonusses, etc. Do you think the new owner will change that around, or what? It was a real blow last year when Smytty was traded.

Lowe ain't the only guy responsible for this mess, but yeah, include him on the Guilty List. The new owner may leave well enough alone for a bit to get a grip on what needs to be done. If he has the experience, or enough people around him who do, I would expect to see drastic changes, IF he is interested in the Oil as a championship franchise. He may be in it for the tax break, but I'd just be guessing.

On the plus side for the Oil--at least Nilsson is playing, looking like he'll be an NHL'er. We're lucky to have those kids this year--Cogliano, Gagner, Nilsson. But we do miss Smytty. And more, this year, we miss Moreau when he's not around. I would have been sadder to lose him than Smytty, really. Too many injuries this year.

Ethan is sooooo not given his due in this league.

Originally posted by: Your Mom
If we make playoffs, it's going to be from the Energy (4th) line, or the farm kids. A few under-6-foot 18-year-olds. Hey, I can't argue, if our babies make it happen, that's going to rock my cock. Not Souray, not Moreau, not the seasoned veterans getting us in.

It happens all of the time. The story of a couple of great scorers surrounded by grinders and a hot goalie is an oft-repeated event.

Ethan's the man.

I don't know the owner, but if I grew up in a town, watched the team through the glory years and the shitball years and spent 200 million to buy the team--I'd be doing it to win. Me and my two oldest friends have hardboy dreams about that kind of thing--three of us sitting in the best box in the arena drinking smoking cigars and watching every game with an eye on the Cup. Who doesn't really? I'm thinking he wants to parade up and down Jasper Ave with it.

I bet Lowe and crew will get another season, or at least half, to show what kind of team money can buy. The last 100 games have been tough to gauge b/c of the bizarro injury bug. So, if all are healthy at the beginning of the next year and we don't make the playoffs at the end, maybe Katz starts pulling triggers. One would hope.

Originally posted by: Mingus Tourette
I don't know the owner, but if I grew up in a town, watched the team through the glory years and the shitball years and spent 200 million to buy the team--I'd be doing it to win.

Well, they want to win, but most guys who own teams are not in it to make a living or a mark on the sport. Most of the time, it's a hobby, or something to add to the tax filing. Sad, but true. This is why I need like, 500 million dollars to drop in my lap. I KNOW I could run an NHL franchise.

I bet Lowe and crew will get another season, or at least half, to show what kind of team money can buy

Lowe needs to be moved to a scout/consultant position. He has an amazing eye for talent, and he knows how to fill in the gaps for a given team. However, his ego gets in the way of smart business decisions. His desire to be the man in control overrides his perspective on the big picture.

The last 100 games have been tough to gauge b/c of the bizarro injury bug.

The same thing happened in LA for years. A combination of poorly-structured/too frequent workouts and an uneducated/underutilized training staff is usually at the core of these issues.

Originally posted by: Obscure/Renegade

Originally posted by: Your Mom
Still, makes me sad to have it phrased that way by someone from the Saath.

Why?

CUZ you're so far from where ice grows. CUZ you have BBQ and racing and beaches and no hot chicks (everyone is overweight down there) and baseball and football and basketball ... and every team in the NHL is made up of at least 80% Canadians, yet fucking American teams who basically have to pay people to go to their games and beg for fans are winning the Cups. The farter South you get, the less people are aware of what the fuck hockey actually is, the less likely they're to know who Gretz was, yet the last two teams to score the Cup were as South as you can be. The Stars are in the middle of the fucking DESERT, FTW. If everyone down there was half as knowledgeable as you, I probably wouldn't mind so much.

There ought to be a law that Canadians can only play on Canadian teams; then WHOO HOO BOY would it ever be different.

Don't mind the feeling of deja vu, I'm not sure either why I still bother whining.

Our dollar has outperformed your dollar for how long now, and book stores are still using American pricing, we're still selling you our oil cheaper than we sell it to ourselves, and you still have more excellent players on your hockey teams. Waa waa waa. The vehicle prices are dropping, yet you can still go to the States and get a car for 1/2 the price you'd pay up here.

Once again, waa.