Forums: Waiting for Godot:

As most if you know, my idea of gun control means 1-inch groups @ 75 yards. I also think that banning citizens from owning guns won't stop gun crime. However, I don't think just anyone should be able to buy a belt-fed .50 machine gun. This does bother me.

cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/03/26/gun.smuggling/index.html

My question to you is, do you see these people the same way you see me— in terms of being gun owners, and therefore we're dangerous? Or are you OK with accepting a wide range of people who enjoy sidearms, and that most of us aren't shooting border agents and cops?

Originally posted by: Obscure/Renegade
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My question to you is, do you see these people the same way you see me— in terms of being gun owners, and therefore we're dangerous? Or are you OK with accepting a wide range of people who enjoy sidearms, and that most of us aren't shooting border agents and cops?

No (I don't see you in that light).

I'll re-iterate my point(s).

1) While all gun-nuts are gun-owners (I think), most gun-owners are not gun-nuts.

2) Guns = weapons. Knives = weapons. Swords = knives. If you think that all gun owners are a little off-kilter, then you'll probably think anyone who owns a samurai sword is a lunatic by default as well. You'd be wrong in either case.

3) The same mentality that has idiots taking guns out on the streets and firing them instead of going to a range, is the same mentality that has car-owners street racing and killing people instead of heading out to a legal track.

Idiots are capable of taking anything and turning it into a weapon.

Originally posted by: Obscure/Renegade
people who enjoy sidearms

Look, children, I bought a gun for us all to enjoy!

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble with the mixing of messages that inevitably comes with NRA type arguments. Are they for self-defense, or are they for fun and frolic?

Because self-defense is not exactly the kind of thing you call "enjoyable." I think you can attest to that.

i don't

my general feeling, while i don't personally like guns and in an ideal world no one would have them, i do realize that a) you can't get the genie back in the bottle and b) there's a large percentage of owners (maybe the majority) are responsible.

however i because the the consequences of accidents and abuse is so high i do believe there needs to be significant safe-guards and ability to track the owner through both the bullets and firearms themselves. we are forced to register our vehicles both the car and ourselves.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

lol O/R - you bored or something? (U played that Boxhead Zombie game yet? It's cured my KDice addiction, but the cure is worse than the disease)


I don't think you're off kilter or dangerous cos you own guns, you're just a product of the society in which you live.

I'm just glad that where I live the guns are in the hands of the police, and unfortunately in the hands of terrorists and some criminals too, but you don't hear many voices crying out for arming the public.

Originally posted by: arigato
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

NOW you tell me.

Lemme just finish bustin' up this chiffarobe. Then I'll be free!

Originally posted by: AgentX
Look, children, I bought a gun for us all to enjoy!

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble with the mixing of messages that inevitably comes with NRA type arguments. Are they for self-defense, or are they for fun and frolic?

Because self-defense is not exactly the kind of thing you call "enjoyable." I think you can attest to that.

whilst I enjoyed shooting the crap out of targets with a variety of handguns whilst on holiday in Thailand and whlst acompanying my father to the range when he was in the armed forces I wouldn't want to own ANY handgun for the simple reason that I wouldn't want to it used to harm anyone.

Originally posted by: arigato
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

not to derail the thread, but slavery has just been legitimized and/or driven underground. we still have sweatshops in california, undocumented workers are basically slave labor, hell minimum wage is institutionalized slavery, but i digress.

As far as I am concerned, anyone who passes a basic background check should be able to own any gun they want.

However, I thing the laws need to be changed a bit in order to throw more responsibility on the shoulders of gun owners.

For instance: There is no such thing as an accident with a gun. Every act committed with a firearm must be considered premeditated. Ecce:

Your six-year-old kid accidentally kills herself with your gun, you go up for first degree murder.
You are cleaning the gun and it goes off, that is attempted murder, even if no-one is hurt.
You point a gun at someone when you are drunk - that is attempted murder, no different from holding a knife to someone's jugular vein.
Commit another crime while in possession of a firearm: Attempted premeditated murder, and felonious assault, and reckless endangerment, added to the other charges.

Your intent, while in possession of a gun, simply does not matter.

It doesn't matter if people are ACTUALLY responsible citizens - the law must treat them as if they are, and as if everything they do, they do on purpose.

Originally posted by: arigato
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

i find myself agreeing with ari here.

Originally posted by: dashiel

Originally posted by: arigato
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

not to derail the thread, but slavery has just been legitimized and/or driven underground. we still have sweatshops in california, undocumented workers are basically slave labor, hell minimum wage is institutionalized slavery, but i digress.

not the same thing, really - for one thing you're not expected to house and clothe your sweatshop workers (unless you own a factory in China). But yeah, of course, ownership is theft/ the gears of industry are greased with the blood of the workers.

Originally posted by: arigato

Originally posted by: dashiel

Originally posted by: arigato
Actually, I'm pretty sure you can get the genie back in the bottle, it just takes time.
It worked with slavery...

not to derail the thread, but slavery has just been legitimized and/or driven underground. we still have sweatshops in california, undocumented workers are basically slave labor, hell minimum wage is institutionalized slavery, but i digress.

not the same thing, really - for one thing you're not expected to house and clothe your sweatshop workers (unless you own a factory in China). But yeah, of course, ownership is theft/ the gears of industry are greased with the blood of the workers.

Originally posted by: AgentX

I'm sorry, but I have a lot of trouble with the mixing of messages that inevitably comes with NRA type arguments. Are they for self-defense, or are they for fun and frolic?

Because self-defense is not exactly the kind of thing you call "enjoyable." I think you can attest to that.

I agree - self defense is not enjoyable. But target shooting, cowboy action shooting sports, and other events can be. Not every handgun is intended (or even particularly useful for) self-defense.

You own one car for taking the kids to soccer, and another one for track days. Do you then say that those Driving types are mixing messages?

Originally posted by: dashiel

not to derail the thread, but slavery has just been legitimized and/or driven underground. we still have sweatshops in california, undocumented workers are basically slave labor, hell minimum wage is institutionalized slavery, but i digress.

It's not much different with gun control or drugs. Making it illegal just moves it into a darker corner of the universe.

The only difference with guns is that you can't just grow them anywhere. Slaves and drugs are part of nature's bounty. Guns require manufacturing. If production were illegal (it never will be), then the issue with the genie would be smuggling.

Originally posted by: rogue_designer
You own one car for taking the kids to soccer, and another one for track days. Do you then say that those Driving types are mixing messages?

I don't own a "car for track days." Driving is transportation.

And I do think that glorifying motorsports sends an unhealthy message, just as glorifying war does.

If we ever want to really achieve safer transportation, then we need to be grown up about the way in which we promote it to ourselves and our youth. If we ever want to grow beyond being a warmongering society, then we need to do the same with war and violence.

We won't, of course, because we are inevitably more selfish and pleasure-addicted than rational as a society. But I also imagine that on some level we recognize that what we do isn't good for us, much like a smoker recognizes that cigarettes aren't healthy but continues smoking them anyway.

Originally posted by: AgentX
Slaves and drugs are part of nature's bounty.

lol

Originally posted by: AgentX
Are they for self-defense, or are they for fun and frolic?

Because self-defense is not exactly the kind of thing you call "enjoyable." I think you can attest to that.

I can see how that choice of words implies such, so allow me to clarify: Self-defense is not enjoyable, hell no. I do enjoy shooting guns at a range. It takes skill and patience to be good with a sidearm, and staying sharp helps me in the event that self-defense becomes necessary.

Originally posted by: dashiel
however i because the the consequences of accidents and abuse is so high i do believe there needs to be significant safe-guards and ability to track the owner through both the bullets and firearms themselves. we are forced to register our vehicles both the car and ourselves.

I think that there should be mandatory training, paid for by the purchaser of said sidearm. If you can't afford it (say it's $300 or something) then you don't need to buy a gun. I also think that guns should be secured, *especially* if kids are around.

Originally posted by: DontBogartMe
lol O/R - you bored or something? (U played that Boxhead Zombie game yet? It's cured my KDice addiction, but the cure is worse than the disease)

Not so much bored as irritated that crooks are managing to buy small cannons to kill people with, and someone at work lumping me into the same category those guys inhabit.

The Zombie game is blocked at work.